INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII – Should the Thirty Meter Telescope Be Built?
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COMING UP NEXT ON INSIGHTS ON
PBS HAWAI’I, SHOULD THE 30-METER TELESCOPE BE BUILT?>>MALIA: ALOHA AND WELCOME TO
INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII. I’M MALIA MATTOCH.
YOUR HOST FOR TONIGHT’S SHOW. HOURS AGO THE OFFICE OF
HAWAIIAN AFFAIRS RESCINDED SUPPORT FOR THE 30-METER
TELESCOPE ON MAUNA KEA. TESTIFIERS AT OHA’S PUBLIC
HEARING CONVINCED TRUSTEES THAT POTENTIAL FOR SCIENTIFIC
ADVANCEMENT MIGHT NOT BE WORTH THE ENVIRONMENTAL AND
CULTURAL RISK. OHA’S ACTION CAME AFTER WEEKS
OF PROTESTS. BROUGHT CONSTRUCTION OF THE 1
STORY TELESCOPE TO A TEMPORARY HALT.
PLANS FOR THE $1.4 BILLION TELESCOPE WERE APPROVED IN
THE PROCESS THAT BEGAN 7 YEARS AGO BUT SOME OPPONENTS ARE
QUESTIONING THE STEWARDSHIP OF MAUNA KEA BY THE
UNIVERSITY OF HAWAI’I. TONIGHT ON INNIGHTS, SHOULD
THE 30-METER TELESCOPE BE BUILT? WE ENCOURAGE VIEWERS
TO JOIN TONIGHT’S CONVERSATION BY CALLING
973-1000 IF YOU LIVE ON OAHU. OR 800-238-4847 IF YOU’RE
CALLING FROM A NEIGHBOR ISLAND.
IF YOU HAVE A SMART PHONE, TABLET OR COMPUTER, YOU CAN
WATCH INNIGHTS STREAMED LIVE AT PBS HAWAI’I HAWAI’I.
CLICK ON THE INSIGHTS TITLE OR FIND US ON [email protected]
HAWAI’I. USE THE HASHTAG TO MAKE SURE
WE SEE YOUR TWEET. TO OUR PANEL.
PAUL COLEMAN IS A NATIVE HAWAIIAN ASTROPHYSICIST AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAI’I INSTITUTE FOR ASTRONOMY.
HE SUPPORTS CONSTRUCTION OF THE 30-METER TELESCOPE WHICH
HE THINKS COULD BENEFIT NATIVE HAWAIIANS AND THE
STATE AS A WHOLE. KEALOHA PISCIOTTA IS
PRESIDENT OF MAUNA KEA AND ANAINA HOU, SPIRIT CAL
ORGANIZATION FOR PEOPLE WITH A CONNECTION TO MAUNA KEA.
SHE HAS BECOME THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE
MAUNA KEA HUI REPRESENTING THOSE OPPOSED TO THE
TELESCOPE. JOHN OSORIO IS BOARD
PRESIDENT FOR KAHEA, THE HAWAIIAN ENVIRONMENTAL
ALLIANCE THAT OPPOSES CONSTRUCTION OF 30-METER
TELESCOPE AND CONCERN FOR THE BIOLOGICAL AND CULTURAL
RESOURCES AT THE SUMMIT AREA. RICHARD HA IS THE FOUNDER AND
PRESIDENT OF HAMAKUA SPRINGS COUNTY FARMS IN EAST HAWAI’I.
MR. HA IS FIRST AT FIRST OPPOSED PLANS FOR THE
OBSERVATORY, BUT HAS SINCE REVERSED HIS POSITION AND HAS
TESTIFIED AT PUBLIC MEETINGS IN SUPPORT OF THE TELESCOPE.
THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. BY RANDOM DRAW, YOU GET THE
FIRST QUESTION. WE GET YOUR RESPONSE TO THE
ACTION FROM OHA TODAY.>>REGARDING OHA.
WELL, IT’S PRETTY DISAPPOINTING.
BUT IT’S BEEN DISAPPOINTING SO I’M NOT ANY MORE
DISAPPOINTED THAN I’VE BEEN THUS FAR.
JOHN AND I ARE LITIGANTS SO WE’VE BEEN ASKING HELP FROM
OHA TO HELP FUND OUR LAWSUITS. BECAUSE OHA IS LEGALLY
MANDATED TO PROTECT NOT ONLY RIGHTS BUT RESOURCES.
BOTH OF WHICH ARE THREATENING.
BOTH HAVE NOT BEEN, FOR EXAMPLE, THE RENT ISSUE IS A
LONG STANDING ISSUE. THE UNIVERSITY AND
INTERNATIONAL TELESCOPE STILL PAY A DOLLAR.
WHILE THE UNIVERSITY CONTAINED ONLY A DOLLAR, THEY
CAN EXTEND THAT PRIVILEGE TO FOREIGN NATIONS AND FOREIGN
GOVERNMENT, FOREIGN CORPORATIONS.
I’M DISAPPOINTED THEY’RE NOT GOING HELP.
>>MALIA: YOU’RE DISAPPOINTED THAT THEY DIDN’T CHOOSE TO
OPPOSE THE PROJECT.>>YEAH.
THEY SHOULD GO FURTHER. I MEAN, THEY CAN’T BE LEADERS.
IF THEY’RE SITTING IN THE BACK OF THE BUS AND THE PEOPLE ARE
LEADING.>>ESSENTIALLY, WHAT THEY DID
IS WENT BACK TO THE SITUATION A YEAR AGO WHEN ACTUALLY, IT
WAS AT THAT TIME KAHEA AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS WERE
TRYING TO GET ACTIVE TO OPPOSE IT.
WE WERE POINTING OUT OF THE MASTER LEASE, YOU KNOW, OHA
20% FOR SHARE. REVENUES, DERIVED FROM CEDED
LANDS. WE ASKED THEM TO TAKE A REALLY
SERIOUS LOOK AT THIS. VERY, VERY, MORE DISAPPOINTED
THAN TO SUPPORT THE PROJECT. ALL THEY HAVE DONE
ESSENTIALLY IS GO BACK TO WHERE THEY WERE A YEAR AGO.
WE WONDER, WE’RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHAT
THEY’RE SAYING TO THE PUBLIC. AND TO KANAKA MAOLE AT THIS
POINT.>>MALIA: MR. HA, YOU
TESTIFIED TODAY. WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT
HAPPENED TODAY?>>WELL, I WAS SORT OF
DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE I REALLY WANTED THEM TO SUPPORT THE
30-METER TELESCOPE. AND WHERE I COME FROM, I AM
CONCERNED ABOUT THE BIG ISLAND AND THE FACT THAT WE
HAD THE LOWEST MEDIAN INCOME IN THE STATE, COUNTIES, AND
THE KONA SIDE IS HIGHER, AVERAGES, AND ON THE EAST
SIDE, IS EVEN LOWER. LIKE PAHOA, SCHOOL COMPLEX
FOR EXAMPLE, 90% OF THE STUDENTS PARTICIPATE IN THE
FREE AND SUBSIDIZED LUNCH PROGRAM.
SO I SEE THE VALUE OF THE EDUCATION FUND AND EMPLOYMENT
AND STUFF LIKE THAT.>>MALIA: AND EDUCATION FUND
BEING ONE THAT THE TELESCOPE WOULD SUPPORT, I BELIEVE IT’S
CALLED THINK? SO THAT’S THE FUND YOU REFER TO.
>>YES.>>MALIA: DR. COLEMAN, AS A
NATIVE HAWAIIAN, AND SCIENTIST, WHY DO YOU SUPPORT
THIS? AND WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT HAPPENED AT
OHA TODAY.>>I WAS ALSO DISAPPOINTED.
IT’S VERY FUNNY. OHA GAVE OUT A POLL OR
SOMETHING, ASKED FOR QUESTIONS, AND ONE QUESTION
WHERE EVERYONE AGREED WAS IF THEY VOTED TO PULL BACK THEIR
SUPPORT FOR THE TMT, WOULD YOU BE DISAPPOINTED.
AND EVERYONE AGREED ON THAT. AND IN FACT, THAT’S THE THING
THEY DID. EXACT WORST THING YOU COULD
DO.>>MALIA: NO ONE WAS HAPPY.
>>IF THEIR INTENTION WAS TO MAKE NO ONE HAPPY, THEY
SUCCEEDED. I’M LIKE RICHARD, I BELIEVE
THAT THE POSSIBILITIES, THE FUTURE POSSIBILITIES, WITH
THE TMT I THINK MUCH OUTWEIGH THE CULTURAL PROBLEMS,
ESPECIALLY IF WE CAN DO IT IN THE CORRECT WAY.
>>MALIA: WE’LL BE GETTING TO DETAILS OF THAT AS OUR HOUR
GOES ON. LET ME GIVE YOU THIS QUESTION.
THIS PROJECT IS 7 YEARS IN THE MAKING, 7 YEARS OF HEARINGS
AND STUDIES. WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT THE
LEVEL OF OBJECTION HASN’T DEVELOPED TO THIS LEVEL UNTIL
NOW? WHAT HAS HAPPENED? THAT’S CHANGED THINGS?
>>MY OPINION IS THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT
ARE HAPPENING IN THE STATE. ACTUALLY, IN THE UNITED
STATES AS WELL. BECAUSE THIS MOVEMENT ISN’T
JUST A HAWAIIAN ISSUE. I MEAN, YOU HAVE FOUR KANAKA
MAOLE HERE ON THIS PANEL, TWO WHO OPPOSE AND TWO WHO
SUPPORT. THIS GIVES PEOPLE IMPRESSION
THIS IS INTERNAL KANAKA MAOLE OVER POLICY.
POLICY PEOPLE, PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW
GOVERNMENTS MAKE DECISIONS IN THE UNITED STATES AND
LOCALLY, THERE HAVE BEEN MORE AND MORE CONCERNS THAT
ESSENTIALLY, ANY KIND OF INVESTMENT IDEA, FRACKING FOR
INSTANCE, IN THE U.S., CERTAIN KINDS OF
CONSTRUCTION, THAT INVOLVE BIG MONEY, THAT THESE SOMEHOW
OVERSHADOW THE NEED TO PROTECT ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS,
PROTECT LABOR LAWS, PROTECT ALL KINDS OF THINGS WITHIN THE
COMMUNITY. AND I THINK THAT WHAT YOU’RE
ACTUALLY SEEING AS A REAL FRUSTRATION BY PEOPLE HERE IN
HAWAI’I, OF REALLY UNEQUAL ACCESS TO THIS
DECISION-MAKING. I THINK THAT’S WHY YOU’RE
SEEING THIS PLAYED OUT AS A POLITICAL MOVEMENT AND
THEY’RE USING THEIR VOICES. THAT’S WHAT THEY’RE LEFT TO
DO. IS NOT RELAX TO THE
DECISION-MAKING.>>MALIA: WAS THERE NOT IT’S
OPPORTUNITY IN THE PAST 7 YEARS TO EXPRESS THAT
FRUSTRATION? OR WAS THERE A CERTAINLY ELEMENT OF THE LAST
SEVEN YEARS THAT SEEMED SPECIFICALLY UNFAIR?
>>THAT’S CORRECT. I WANTED TO JUST MAKE A
CORRECTION HERE. THE 7 YEARS IS JUST SORT OF A
RANDOM NUMBER. BUT OPPOSITION TO DEVELOPMENT
OF MAUNA KEA HAS GONE ON FOR MANY YEARS.
ACTUALLY BEGAN IN THE SEVENTIES.
IN THE EIGHTIES, GOVERNOR ARIYOSHI HAD TO INTERVIEW AND
CREATE A COMMITTEE THINK IT’S CALLED THE 1970 MANAGEMENT
PLAN. WE’VE BEEN FIGHTING, MANY OF
THE OTHERS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR MORE THAN 15 YEARS.
WE ACTUALLY STOPPED AS MANY AS 10 TELESCOPES BECAUSE OF THE
EARLY CASES. AND SO OPPOSITION, AND THE
OPPOSITION IS AS JOHN SAID, NOT ONLY HAWAIIAN.
THIS IS MAJOR ENVIRONMENTAL, IT’S SUPPORTED BY MAJOR
ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS INCLUDING ANONYMOUS, I WOULD
JUST LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT ACTION.
THEY ARE USING THE TOOLS THAT THEY KNOW TO USE, TO HELP
BALANCE POWER, BECAUSE POWER IS IMBALANCED IN HAWAI’I
OBVIOUSLY. SO I JUST WANT TO SAY 7 YEARS
AND JUST SO PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, I ADMIRE THEIR
ACTIONS. I JUST BELIEVE WE OPEN
COMMUNICATION.>>MALIA: WHEN YOU SAY YOU
ADMIRE THEIR ACTION, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
>>I ADMIRE THEIR TENACITY TO HELP BALANCE POWER WHERE THEY
SEE IMBALANCE OF POWER. THE ANONYMOUS.
AND SO I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THAT 7 YEARS
IS 7 YEARS OF FRUSTRATION OF HAVING THREE MINUTES TO
SPEAK, AND BEING TOLD TO SIT DOWN AND BE BEING TOLD ALL OF
THESE THINGS. SO THAT’S WHAT’S REALLY — IT
SHOULDN’T BE A SURPRISE.>>MALIA: IT’S BEEN SIMMERING
FOR A LONG TIME AND IT EXPLODED?
>>EXACTLY.>>MALIA: MAYBE THIS WOULD BE
A GOOD TIME. WHAT IS THE CULTURAL
SIGNIFICANCE OF MAUNA KEA? I MEAN, HOLDS A VERY SPECIAL
PLACE. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHY THIS
IS SUCH AN EMOTIONAL ISSUE FOR MANY OF THE PROTESTERS?
>>I CAN SAY FROM A PRACTITIONER POINT OF VIEW,
THERE ARE MANY OUT THERE WITH MANY SCHOOLS OF KNOWLEDGE,
BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, MAUNA KEA IS A TEMPLE.
IT IS TEMPLE OF SUPREME DEITY AND THE ‘AUMAKUA, AND OUR
ANCESTORS. BURIAL GROUND OF OUR
ANCESTORS. ENTRANCE WAY TO THE POLE,
WHICH IS THE REALM BEFORE THE TIME OF LIGHT.
IT HAS MUCH SIGNIFICANCE. MUCH PRACTICE, MUCH SUCH AS
THE PRACTICE OF THE SOLSTICE AND EQUINOX, WANT TO PROTECT
AGAINST, THAT WE BELIEVE THE TMT WILL INTERFERE WITH.
THINGS LIKE THAT. SO THERE’S HUGE SIGNIFICANCE
IT’S A SACRED PLACE. THAT’S WHAT PEOPLE ARE
OBJECTING TO. DESECRATION OF SACRED PLACE.
>>MALIA: MR. HA, YOU SPOKE EARLIER ABOUT THE POTENTIAL
GOOD THAT THIS TELESCOPE CAN DO FOR THE BIG ISLAND.
COULD YOU ADDRESS THAT, ECONOMIC AND EDUCATIONAL
BENEFITS?>>I THINK WE NEED TO HELP OUR
STUDENTS DREAM BIG BUT IT TAKES MONEY TO GET TO SCHOOL.
WITH THE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OF THE BIG ISLAND STOPPED, SO
THIS WILL HELP, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, ALL OF US HERE, WE’VE
ALREADY GOT OUR EDUCATION. NOBODY CAN TAKE IT AWAY.
BUT THERE’S SOME CHILDREN THAT CANNOT AFFORD AND THIS IS
WHAT THE EDUCATION FUND CAN DO.
BECAUSE EDUCATION IS THE GREAT EQUALIZER.
>>MALIA: YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT.
I’M GOING TO ADDRESS THIS NEXT QUESTION TO DR. COLEMAN.
THIS IS FROM MAKAKILO. HOW WOULD ANCIENT HAWAIIANS
WHO DEVELOP CELESTIAL NAVIGATION DEVELOP THIS
30-METER TELESCOPE?>>I HAVE A PARTICULAR
PERSPECTIVE ON THAT. I BELIEVE THAT WE HAWAIIANS,
IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT MAKES YOU HAWAIIAN, IT’S
NOT HULA. IT’S NOT OLI.
IT’S NOT LISTENING TO YOUR KUPUNA.
IT’S NOT — THOSE ARE ALL PARTS OF IT, BUT THEY DON’T
SEPARATE US FROM, SAY, THE SAMOANS OR TAHITIANS.
THE THINGS THAT MAKES US HAWAIIANS ANCESTORS CAME TO
US IN A CANOE. THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU GET TO
BE HAWAIIAN. THAT WAS LED BY A NAVIGATOR
ASTRONOMER. WE, IT’S PART OF WHO WE ARE.
IT’S DEEP IN OUR DNA, CULTURAL DNA, THAT I FIND IT AMAZING
THAT WE STILL ARE NOT JUST AS CONNECTED TO ASTRONOMY.
>>MALIA: WHY — THERE ARE 13 TELESCOPES THAT ARE ALREADY
THERE. WHY DOES THIS TELESCOPE NEED
TO BE BUILT? WHY IS IT ABOUT THIS ONE THAT WOULD BE SPECIAL
OR UNIQUE FROM A SCIENCE PERSPECTIVE.
>>WE ALWAYS ARE TRYING TO SEE FURTHER INTO THE UNIVERSE.
IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT BIGGER AND BIGGER
AREA. SO THE 30-METER, WHILE IT’S
GOING TO BE ABOUT THREE TIMES BIGGER THAN THE KECK, WHICH IS
THE NEXT LARGEST TELESCOPE IT SHOULD INCREASE THE ABILITY
TO SEE BY ABOUT A FACTOR OF 10. SO FOR US, FROM A SCIENCE
PERSPECTIVE, ALLOWS US TO LOOK THAT MUCH FURTHER BACK
INTO UNE VERSE. BACK INTO TIME.
WE TRY TO SEE BETTER. THE PRIMARY IS FOR THE
30-METER TO ADVANCE OUR DISCOVERY.
>>MALIA: TO A NEW LEVEL. DR. OSORIO, DO ANY OF THOSE
SCIENCE BENEFITS SPEAK TO YOU?
>>YEAH, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY, THANK YOU FOR ASKING THE
QUESTION SCIENCE NAVIGATION DOESN’T JUST INVOLVE
ASTRONOMY. IT INVOLVES INTIMATE
KNOWLEDGE OF WINDS AND CURRENTS AND WAVES AND
SWELLS. IT INVOLVES REALLY A KIND OF
HOLISTIC KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THE WORLD OPERATES AND HOW
WEATHER OPERATES. WHEN YOU TAKE A VOYAGE AND
WHEN YOU DON’T TAKE A VOYAGE. ALL OF THESE THINGS WERE
THINGS THAT OUR ANCESTORS KNEW REALLY WELL.
THE REALLY INTERESTING THING ABOUT HAWAIIAN SCIENCE AND
KNOWLEDGE IS HOW ALMOST COMPLETELY IT WAS DEMOLISHED
BY THAT VERY WESTERN EDUCATION THAT IS BEING
CELEBRATED BY THIS TELESCOPE. THERE ARE SO MANY SCIENCES IN
THE WORLD AND THE SCIENCE OF NAVIGATION AND THE SCIENCE OF
SCIENCES OF KNOWING HOW TO LIVE IN A SMALL SORT OF
LIMITED SPACE AND TAKE EVERY ADVANTAGE OF WEATHER, OF THE
WATER, OF THE KINDS OF SEASONS THAT WE HAVE HERE IN THE
SOILS, THESE ARE THINGS THAT HAWAIIANS OUR ANCESTORS BUILT
OVER, THE 1500 YEARS, 2000 YEARS THAT WE’VE BEEN
HERE IN THESE ISLANDS. ALL OF THIS IS KNOWLEDGE THAT
HAS ALMOST BEEN FORGOTTEN AND RELATEDLY, ESSENTIALLY KIND
OF IN THE SHADOW OF THESE HUGE — I SEE THIS AS SHADOW
OF THE TELESCOPES, BASICALLY SAY, LOOK, THIS IS THE
KNOWLEDGE THAT MATTERS. THIS IS THE SCIENCE THAT
MATTERS. AND THIS WILL ALLOW US TO LOOK
10 TIMES FURTHER INTO SPACE. WELL, OKAY.
SO YOU CAN DO THAT NOW WHEN YOU FINISH THIS.
BUT WILL THAT BE ENOUGH?>>I KIND OF DISAGREE, JOHN.
I DON’T BELIEVE THAT MODERN SCIENCE IN ANY WAY WIPED OUT
TRADITIONAL SCIENCE.>>IT ALMOST DID.
>>NO. I THINK WHAT WIPED IT OUT WAS
DISEASES AND THE FACT THAT WE’RE ONE IN 20.
>>YOU DON’T KNOW YOUR HISTORY.
ACTUALLY, THERE WERE VERY SPECIFIC KINDS OF THINGS THAT
WERE DONE IN THE 20TH CENTURY SCHOOLS.
EVEN IN THE 19TH CENTURY SCHOOLS, TO SHOVE THAT
KNOWLEDGE ASIDE. REALLY, BANNING OF KAHUNA
PRACTICES, BANNING OF THE LANGUAGE.
>>DIDN’T WE GIVE THOSE UP OURSELVES? DIDN’T WE DO
THAT?>>NO.
WE ACTUALLY DIDN’T GIVE UP OUR LANGUAGE OURSELVES.
>>I MEANT THE KAHUNA PRACTICES.
>>THERE’S ACTUALLY A LAW ON THE BOOKS THAT PROHIBITED.
THERE’S STILL ONE ACTUALLY. I WANT TO SAY THAT THE THING
THAT WE’RE WITNESSING IS THE IDEA OF WESTERN SUPREMACY.
THE IDEA AT THAT WESTERN SCIENCE SOMEHOW IS MORE
SUPERIOR WAY OF KNOWING. WHAT WE WILL LOSE IF THE TMT
HAPPENS IS OUR BUILT TO TRACK THE HEAVENS OVER THE 26,000
YEAR CYCLE, WHICH HAS BEEN BEING TRACKED IN PERHAPS EVEN
POLYNESIA FOR MILLENIA. SO THE IDEA THAT WE HAD TO GO
BACK AND TRY TO RE-ESTABLISH HOW THAT WAS DONE AND HOW THAT
WAS MEASURED NOT ONLY FROM MOOLELO AND ORAL HISTORY, BUT
FROM OUR KUPUNA AND TO ACTUALLY REALLY STUDY IT AND
REALIGN IT. WE HAD TO DO THAT.
WHERE IT WAS PRACTICED BEFORE, IT WAS ELIMINATED BY
THE PREVIOUS TELESCOPES. SO WHAT IS DOING IS PUSHING US
AGAIN EVEN FURTHER BEHIND. I WANT TO MAKE A CORRECTION.
THERE’S NOT 13 TELESCOPES. THERE’S 22.
IF YOU COUNT THE SMITHSONIAN, VLBA AND THE KECKS 1 AND 2.
THERE ARE 22.>>MALIA: IS 22 THE PROPER
NUMBER? I’VE READ 13.>>THE 13 IS RIGHT.
THE INDIVIDUAL TELESCOPES NEVER OPERATE AS INDIVIDUALS.
>>YES, THEY DO. THEY CAN.
SMA CAN OPERATE.>>THEY OPERATE AT
INTER FEROMETER.>>MALIA: THE REASON IS IT’S
NOT THE NUMBER. IT’S THE IMPACT.
SMA IS HALF A MILE WITH ALL KINDS OF IMPACT.
IT’S NOT RIGHTEOUS TO COUNT IT AS ONE.
>>IT’S A HALF A MILE ACROSS.>>ITTY-BITTY SPOTS.
IT’S NOT RUINING THE ENTIRE HALF A MAILA CROSS.
IT’S JUST THE LITTLE SPOTS.>>EVEN TO THE PUU AND IT IS
THIS WHOLE AREA.>>WE HAD THIS DISCUSSION
BEFORE. THE TELESCOPE IS A COMBINED
ENTITY. IT’S NOT–THEY’RE NOT
SEPARATE TELESCOPES.>>ITS IMPACT.
13 ARE NOT ONLY THE NUMBER. BUT THE IMPACT.
SO THE TMT WOULD NOT MATCH THE ALSO THE HEIGHT AND DIMENSION
OF THE LIMITS THAT ARE SET IN THE ’87 REPORT AND
2000 DIDN’T OVERRIDE IT.>>MALIA: I’M SURE WE’LL KEEP
COMING BACK TO THE ISSUES. THERE IS THIS MOVEMENT TO
POTENTIALLY REVERSE THE APPROVALS AND DECIDE AGAINST
IT F THAT WERE TO BE SUCCESSFUL, IF THIS PROJECT
WERE TO BE SIDELINED, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT REVERSAL COULD
SAY TO THE WORLD ABOUT DOING BUSINESS IN HAWAI’I, RULE OF
LAW IN HAWAI’I. DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT
THAT?>>YES, I DO.
IT WILL BE JUST ANOTHER THING THAT HAPPENS THAT SHOWS THAT
HAWAI’I IS NOT A GOOD PLACE TO DO BUSINESS.
YOU CAN’T TRUST THE AGENCIES TO SAY WHAT THEY — DEPEND ON
THE AGENCIES. I’M WORRIED ABOUT THIS IS ON
THE BIG ISLAND, I MENTIONED ABOUT THE MEDIAN FAMILY
INCOME. WE NEED TO DIVERSIFY OUR
ECONOMY BECAUSE COMING UP IN THE FUTURE, NOT TOO DISTANT
FUTURE IS THE EFFECTS OF RUNNING OUT OF DECLINING
PETROLEUM PRODUCTS. WHEN THAT HAPPENS, IT’S GOING
TO MAKE THIS SITUATION BECOME VERY SMALL BECAUSE THE SOCIAL
IMPACT WILL BE HUGE ON THE PEOPLE OF HAWAI’I.
>>I’M GETTING QUESTION AFTER QUESTION FROM PEOPLE ASKING
WHY NOT REPURPOSE AN EXISTING OBSERVATORY IN ALL DIFFERENT
FORMS. LET ME GO BACK TO YOU,
DR. OSORIO. WOULD YOU, THEN I WOULD LIKE
TO ASK YOU IF THAT’S EVEN POSSIBLE.
WOULD SOME SORT OF REPURPOSING OF AN EXISTING OR
TAKING DOWN OF OBSOLETE SATISFY IN SOME WAY SOME OF
THE RESISTANCE TO THIS AND OPEN THE POSSIBILITY OF GOING
AHEAD AND BUILDING THIS 30-METER TELESCOPE?
>>I FEEL AS THOUGH WHEN THEY’RE WONDERING WHETHER OR
NOT, PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE SOME KIND OF WAY THE
TMT CAN EXIST. YOU KNOW, MY OWN OPINION,
CERTAINLY, THE OPINION OF KAHEA, THERE ISN’T A WAY FOR
THAT TO HAPPEN. THE IMPACT OF THIS STRUCTURE
IS EVEN IF IT WERE TO BE RELOCATED ON OTHER OLDER
STRUCTURES, THAT FACILITY WOULD HAVE TO BE RESTORED I
GUESS TO ORIGINAL STATE AND THEN REDONE SO THAT SOMEHOW,
THIS COULD BE BUILT. MAKES LITTLE SENSE TO ME.
THE IMPACT OF THIS HUGE BUILDING IS ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT WE OBJECT TO. ESSENTIALLY, I DON’T — AND
BECAUSE I DON’T THINK THAT THAT’S A NEGOTIABLE THING.
I THINK –>>MALIA: THE SIZE, 18
STORIES?>>YES.
I THINK THAT WHAT WE ARE ACTUALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF AND
MORE IMPORTANT ISSUE FOR PEOPLE, WHETHER THIS THING
GETS BUILT OR NOT, IS REALLY, WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT IN HAWAI’I, IN THE STATE, ON THAT ISLAND,
WHAT IS THE FUTURE AND HOW DO WE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEM?
BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT KAHEA HAS BEEN FIGHTING HAS
BEEN THE WAY THIS HAS BEEN ALLOWED.
DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE REALLY CLEAR VIOLATIONS
IN AWARDING THIS. ONE OF THE THINGS WE’RE
COMPLAINING ABOUT IS KIND OF THE UNRAVELING OF THE LEGAL
PROTECTIONS THAT ARE THERE FOR CONSERVATION IN THE FIRST
PLACE. THOSE ARE THE LARGE ISSUES.
THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT I REALLY, ALWAYS INSIST ON
KEEPING OUR EYES ON.>>MALIA: LET ME READ THESE TWO
COMMENTS. FROM WAIMEA.
I CAN’T BELIEVE THE OPPOSITION TO A CLEAN, WELL
MEANING PROJECT. I DON’T SEE WHERE THERE’S A
PROBLEM. AND THEN FROM ROSEMARY IN
HONOLULU. IT IS TOTALLY ABSURD TO PUT
ANOTHER TELESCOPE ON MAUNA KEA.
IT WON’T GIVE US FOOD OR WATER.
DOESN’T FEED THE PEOPLE. WE HAVE A DYING PEOPLE.
THE SCIENTISTS SHOULD BE LOOKING DOWN, NOT TO THE
STARS. WHY SHOULD PEOPLE CARE ABOUT
THE STARS AS THIS CALLER HAS ASKED?
>>I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF.
I CERTAINLY HAVE VERY MUCH INTEREST IN THE UNIVERSE AND
WHAT’S GOING ON OUT THERE. I’M ALSO VERY INTERESTED IN
TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE HERE ON EARTH.
AND SO DEFINITELY, WOULDN’T, FOR EXAMPLE, SAY SOMEONE
COULDN’T WORK BECAUSE OF A PROJECT THAT I’M TRYING TO
START. I THINK IT’S JUST SOMETHING OF
OUR NATURE, ALL OF US, EVEN HARDEST TYPES, WOULD SAY,
THAT DARK OF NIGHT, THEY’RE WONDERING WHAT’S GOING ON UP
ABOVE US. AND THIS TELESCOPE MAY ALLOWS
US TO TRY TO FIGURE SOME OF THAT OUT.
IT MAY NOT. BUT IT’S ONLY METHOD THAT I
KNOW TO GO BEYOND WHAT WE CAN SEE WITH OUR EYES.
>>DO YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT? WHY SHOULD PEOPLE CARE
ABOUT THIS TELESCOPE?>>I ALWAYS COME BACK TO THE
EFFECT ON THE PEOPLE. I’M A BIG ADVOCATE FOR WHAT I
CALL THE RUBBER SLIPPER FOLKS.
TOO OFTEN THEY ARE NOT, THEIR FIGHT IS NOT CONSIDERED.
RIGHT NOW, ASTRONOMY PROVIDES CLOSE TO $100 MILLION INTO
THE BIG ISLAND ECONOMY. THE 30-METER TELESCOPE IS
PROBABLY GOING TO ADD ANOTHER 26 MILLION.
300 JOBS CONSTRUCTION. 140 PERMANENT JOBS.
BUT THE THING THAT REALLY, I LOOK AT IT IS THE BENEFITS,
EDUCATIONAL BENEFIT BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IT’S NOT GOING TO BE
INSTANTANEOUS THAT YOU’RE GOING TO GET ALL OF THESE
PEOPLE QUALIFIED BECAUSE IT TAKES A WHILE.
BY THE TIME YOU GET TO COLLEGE, IF YOU’RE NOT
PREPARED, YOU’RE NOT EVER GOING TO BE A SCIENTIST,
TECHNOLOGY, STUFF LIKE THAT. YOU HAVE TO PREPARE FROM
SMALL. IT’S GOING TO BE A LONG, YOU
HAVE TO WORK HARD AND IT’S NOT GOING TO BE INSTANTANEOUS.
WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. WHAT I LIKE ABOUT THE 30-METER
TELESCOPE IS THEY UNDERSTAND THIS.
SO THEY’RE STARTING WITH THE KIDS.
>>MALIA: I WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THIS NEXT QUESTION.
COMMENT FOR THE PANEL. HAWAIIANS WERE ONCE LEADERS
IN AQUACULTURE, AGRICULTURE, IT’S A CRIME FOR GENERATIONS
NOT TO LEARN FROM ASTRONOMY. DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE IN THE
LOSS OF OPPORTUNITIES IF THIS TELESCOPE WERE NOT TO GO
FORWARD AS PLANNED.>>NO.
UNDER THE LAW, FIRST THING, IT’S A CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
CONSERVATION DISTRICT HAVE RULES.
TMT ADMITS THAT THE IMPACT OF 30 YEARS ASTRONOMY, THIS IS
NASA WHO TOOK INTO ACCOUNT TMT ALSO, 30 YEARS OF ASTRONOMY
DEVELOPMENT HAS RESULTED IN ADVERSE SIGNIFICANT AND
INCIDENTAL IMPACT. THEY HAVE TO REITERATE THAT
BECAUSE IT’S NASA EIS WAS THE ONLY ONE EVER DONE.
WHEN SOMEONE SAYS IT’S A CLEAN SCIENCE, THEORETICALLY, BUT
THEIR OWN EIS IS ADMITTING THAT THE IMPACT IS ADVERSE AND
SIGNIFICANT AND SUBSTANTIAL. THAT’S THE CASE, IT’S NOT GOOD
FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. THE NOT GOOD FOR THE LANDING.
IT’S NOT GOOD FOR THE CULTURE. THEY ARE ALREADY ADMITTING
THAT. NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, I’M SORRY, QUESTION WAS KIND OF LONG.
>>I THINK WHAT THEY’RE ASKING IS THAT THE GREATER WOULD BE
FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO LEARN AND EXPLORE.
>>I GOT IT. RIGHT.
EDUCATION. FIRST THING, YOU NEED TO BE
PAYING RENT. THAT’S THE LAW.
THESE THINGS ARE LAWS. SO WHAT’S STOPPING THE THE
TELESCOPE. WHAT HAS STOPPED THE
DEVELOPMENT FOR 15 YEARS IS THE LAW ACTUALLY.
SO WHEN PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WHY CAN’T YOU JUST THREAT HAPPEN?
WELL, THE LAW DOESN’T LET IT HAPPEN.
IN THIS CASE, THE LAW REQUIRES FAIR MARKET INSURANCE TO BE
PAID ON CEDED LAND. THAT WOULD GO INTO THE GENERAL
EDUCATION FUND. THAT IS NOT HAPPENING FROM ANY
OF THE TELESCOPES. THEY’RE PAYING A DOLLAR.
SO IN THE GENERAL — IF IT WERE GOING INTO THE GENERAL
FUND, IT ADDRESSES HEALTH EDUCATION AND HOUSING.
THAT’S WHERE THE MONEY WOULD COME FROM FOR EDUCATION.
THE THINK TANK IS WHAT — THINK FUND IS WHAT
THEY WHAT THEY CHOOSE TO GIVE BUT IT’S NOT IN COMPLIANCE
WITH THE LAW BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE FAIR MARKET.
YOU YALE PAID 12 MILLION FOR 10 DAYS ALONE.
THEY NEED TO BE EVALUATING THE FAIR MARKET.
I’M ALL FOR EDUCATION. YEAH.
>>MALIA: ALL RIGHT, TONIGHT, WE’RE DISCUSSING WHETHER THE
30-METER TELESCOPE SHOULD BE BUILT ON MAUNA KEA.
PLEASE CALL, E-MAIL OR TWEETS YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS.
CALL 973-1000 IF YOU LIVE ON OAHU.
AND 800-238-4847 IF YOU’RE ON A NEIGHBOR ISLAND.
DR. OSORIO, YOU LOOKED AT IF YOU WANTED TO ADD TO THAT?
>>I WANTED TO JUMP IN ON THAT. WHAT YOU REALLY LOOKING AT
HERE, THE PROMISES OF ECONOMIC BENEFITS, THE
PROMISES OF BETTER EDUCATION, WHAT KEALOHA IS SAYING, IF IN
FACT THE TELESCOPES ARE PAYING FAIR MARKET VALUE, YOU
COULD ACTUALLY SEE HOW THAT MIGHT TAKE PLACE.
BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT’S HAPPENING HERE.
MAUNA KEA IS A CHEAP, ACCESSIBLE, BEST VIEWING KIND
OF PLACE FOR THIS ESTABLISHMENT OF THESE
TELESCOPES AND THIS HAS BEEN JUSTIFICATION ENOUGH FOR
DLNR, AND IN THE PAST, FOR OHA, AND FOR STATE AGENCIES.
TO CLEAR THE WAY. WE’RE BEING TOLD, AS I THINK
PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD, THAT IF IT’S GOOD FOR THE
ECONOMY, THAT’S REALLY AS FAR AS WE WANT ANYONE TO ANALYZE
THIS. SUGAR WAS GOOD FOR THE
ECONOMY. WHALING WAS GOOD FOR THE
ECONOMY. SANDALWOOD WAS GOOD FOR THE
ECONOMY. ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE
BASICALLY. AND ACTUALLY WHAT, THEY WERE
REALLY GOOD FOR, EVERY SINGLE TIME, WERE A HANDFUL OF
INVESTORS, LAND OWNERS, BUSINESS PEOPLE.
THEY WEREN’T NECESSARILY GOOD FOR PEOPLE.
AND I KNOW THAT THIS IS A HARD THING FOR PEOPLE TO THINK
ABOUT WHEN, AS YOU SAY, RUBBER SLIPPER PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN
STRUGGLING WITH A BAD ECONOMY ON HAWAI’I ISLAND FOR A VERY
LONG TIME, BUT RICHARD, HOW MUCH OF THAT BAD ECONOMY IS
REALLY THE RESULT OF NOT BRINGING ENOUGH INVESTMENT
MONEY? HOW MUCH OF IT IS ALSO THE FACT THAT SO MUCH OF THE
LAND IS EITHER CEDED LANDS OR TIED UP IN OUR OWN LARGE
ESTATES WHO ARE REALLY RELUCTANT TO OPEN IT UP TO THE
GENERAL MARKET AND ALLOW PEOPLE TO FIND NEW BUSINESS
OPPORTUNITIES.>>I COME FROM A DIFFERENT
POINT OF VIEW BECAUSE I WENT TO FIVE OF THESE ASSOCIATION
FOR THE STUDY OF HECO CONFERENCES.
VERY WELL AWARE OF WHAT’S HAPPENING WITH THE DECLINING
PETROLEUM PROJECTS.>>THE THING ABOUT ENERGY,
IT’S THE NET ENERGY THAT COUNTS.
IT TAKES ENERGY TO GET ENERGY. IT’S THE NET ENERGY THAT YOU
GET TO USE FOR YOUR SOCIETY. WHAT’S HAPPENING TODAY IS
THAT’S SHRINKING. AS IT SHRINKS.
WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THE STUFF WITH OUR OWN HANDS.
UNLESS WE START TO USE TECHNOLOGY TO LEVERAGE THE
RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE. THAT’S WHY WE NEED EDUCATION.
WE NEED TO REALLY HAVE OUR KIDS START TO DREAM BIG.
RATHER THAN BECAUSE THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU DREAM SMALL,
YOUR DREAMS MIGHT COME TRUE.>>MALIA: DR. COLEMAN, COULD
YOU ADDRESS THIS ISSUE? ARE TELESCOPES PAYING ENOUGH?
>>WELL, THE WAY THE ONE DOLLAR LEASE CAME ABOUT WAS
BECAUSE HISTORICALLY, HILO WAS WIPED OUT BY A TSUNAMI.
SO THEY STARTED LOOKING FOR A WAY IN WHICH TO BRING NEW
TECHNOLOGY, NEW BUSINESS INTO HILO.
THAT LED TO TELESCOPES ON THE MOUNTAIN.
STARTED OFF AS ONE. GOT TO BE MORE.
BUT THAT ONE DOLLAR HISTORICAL FACT THAT JUST GOT
TIED TO THE 65 YEAR LEASE. WHAT CAN WE DO LEGALLY? WE
COULD ASK THE TELESCOPES IF THEY WOULD PLEASE LIKE TO
INSTEAD RENEGOTIATE AND PAY MORE MONEY.
THAT USUALLY DOESN’T HAPPEN RIGHT OFF.
BUT THE TMT ITSELF, THAT’S WHY I DON’T UNDERSTAND YOUR GUYS’
COMMENTS BECAUSE THE TMT PLANS TO PAY RENTS.
PLANS TO PAY AT LEAST AT FAIR MARKET VALUE, THAT WILL
INCREASE AS THEIR FOOTPRINT ON THE MOUNTAIN GROWS.
UNTIL WHEN IT’S ACTUALLY RUNNING, THEY’LL BE PAYING A
MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. IT WILL GO TO ALL OF THOSE
AGENCIES THAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.
SO I DON’T UNDERSTAND YOUR OBJECTION TO THE TMT.
I CAN SEE IT FOR THE KECK OR THE OTHER, BUT THEY’RE PART OF
THAT OLD.>>MALIA: SO THE ANGER
DIRECTED TOWARDS TELESCOPE? IS IT BECAUSE OF THIS RESIDUAL
ISSUE?>>LET ME BE CLEAR.
FOR ME AS A HAWAIIAN, IT DOESN’T, THE MONEY IS
IRRELEVANT. BECAUSE IT’S THE SANCTITY OF
THE MOUNTAIN. SACREDNESS.
BUT IF IT IS IT REQUIRED BY LAW, THEN IT NEEDS TO BE DONE.
GOOD EXAMPLE OF WHY THIS IS A PROBLEM IS BECAUSE THE
COMPANY I USED TO WORK FOR P ACTUALLY THE GOVERNMENT,
BRITISH, DUTCH, AND CANADIAN GOVERNMENT, WHICH WAS THE
JOINT ASTRONOMY CENTER JUST PULLED OUT AND UNIVERSITY
GAVE IT TO LOCKHEED MARTIN. IN THAT TRANSACTION, THERE
WAS NOTHING PAID BY THOSE GOVERNMENTS FOR THE USE OF OUR
MOUNTAIN. THAT’S RIDICULOUS.
IT IS RIDICULOUS. IT’S A SLAP IN THE FACE TO THE
OTHER OFFENSES, WHICH ARE EVEN MORE EGREGIOUS.
SO YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE GREAT, PAUL, IF WE COULD
CHOOSE TO JUST PAY THE LANDLORD WHAT WE WANT, BUT THE
REQUIREMENTS UNDER THE LAW REQUIRING INDEPENDENT
ASSESSOR –>>THAT’S WHAT THE 30-METER IS
DOING. THEY’RE PAYING WHAT’S
REQUIRED BY LAW.>>NO.
THEY’RE NOT. BECAUSE THEY HIRED THEIR OWN
ASSESSOR AND THAT VIOLATES THE LAW TOO.
IT HAS TO BE INDEPENDENT — HE BASICALLY GOT UP AND SAID, THE
MOUNTAIN IS NOT WORTH ANYTHING.
IT’S JUST A BUNCH OF ROCKS.>>HE WASN’T HIRED BY THEM.
>>HE WAS HIRED BY MANAGEMENT. NO.
>>HE WAS HIRED BY THEM. ANYWAYS, OFFICE OF MAUNA KEA
MANAGEMENT.>>MALIA: LET’S GET TO THE
MANAGEMENT ISSUE. THAT WAS DISCUSSED TODAY
DURING THE OHA HEARING. DO SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS IN
TERMS OF THIS SPECIFIC TELESCOPE STEM FROM LONG
STANDING FEELINGS TOWARDS THE MANAGEMENT OF THE AREA?
>>DR. OSORIO>>TMT, SOMETHING THAT
RICHARD POINTED OUT IN THIS THE ARTICLE, THAT BASICALLY,
IT. MT IS TRYING TO MAKE UP FOR
YEARS AND YEARS OF MISMANAGEMENT.
AND IS TRYING TO DO THIS RIGHT.
I’M NOT GOING TO I DON’T KNOW THE INTRICACIES OF THIS
ENOUGH TO COMMENT ON WHETHER OR NOT IT’S COMPLETELY DOING
IT RIGHT. IT’S STILL IN VIOLATION,
HOWEVER. THERE ARE ADVERSE — IT’S
ADMITTING TO ADVERSE — AND SIGNIFICANT ADVERSE IMPACTS.
THAT THEN IS A VIOLATION OF ONE OF THE THESE RULES OF THE
CDUP. THE QUESTION OVER AND OVER
AGAIN, COMES TO BE, WHY DID THEY GET AN EXCEPTION? WE
UNDERSTAND THAT WHY ALL OF THE OTHER TELESCOPES, SCREWED UP
THE MOUNTAIN BECAUSE NOBODY PAID ATTENTION.
EVEN WHEN THEY WERE CHALLENGING THEM IN COURT.
NOBODY MADE THIS BIG ENOUGH ISSUE.
BUT WHY DOES TMT GET AN EXCEPTION? OBVIOUS ANSWER
IS $1.4 BILLION IS WHY. HONESTLY, AT LEAST FOR SOME
PEOPLE IN HAWAI’I, THAT’S NOT A GOOD ANSWER.
IT’S NOT A GOOD ANSWER.>>MALIA: WHILE WE’RE ON
ECONOMICS VAST MAJORITY OF TMT JOBS GOING TO CANADIAN
IT’S, IS THAT THE CASE OR WILL THE NEW TELESCOPE EMPLOY
LOCAL PEOPLE?>>TMT WANTS TO — THEY’RE
STARTING WORK FORCE PIPELINE. WHAT THEY’RE DOING IS, BY 10
YEARS FROM NOW, THEY’RE LOOKING BACK TO MIDDLE
SCHOOL, HIGH SCHOOL, SO THAT THEY GET TRAINED TO DO THE
JOBS. SO THEY ARE DOING THAT.
AND I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT AS A BUSINESS MODEL, WHEN
PEOPLE ARE SUSPICIOUS OF LARGE BUSINESSES, THE
30-METER TELESCOPE FOLKS ARE DIFFERENT.
THEY’RE MUCH, MUCH DIFFERENT. THEY’RE OVER THERE TRYING TO
DO GOOD FOR THE COMMUNITY. I KNOW BECAUSE I KNOW THOSE
FOLKS. THE PRESIDENT OF 30-METER
TELESCOPE IS A PERSON I FEEL LIKE I CAN DO BUSINESS WITH ON
A HANDSHAKE. SOME PEOPLE, YOU CAN DO THAT
WITH. SOME PEOPLE, YOU HAVE TO BRING
LAWYERS. THEY’RE NOT LIKE THAT.
>>MALIA: SO YOU FEEL THAT THEY’LL BE GOOD STEWARDS OF
THE COMMUNITY?>>I’VE SEEN THAT AND I’VE
TALKED TO THEM AND I KNOW WHAT THEY’RE TRYING TO DO.
THEY LET US DO THE MANAGEMENT OF THE — I WAS ON THE
SUBCOMMITTEE. AND WE PUSHED IT SO WE CAN GET
HAWAIIAN STUDENTS TO GET TWO BITES OF THEAPPLE.
PUSHED IT AS HARD AS THEY CAN GO AND THEY LET IT GO.
>>MALIA: LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.
WHAT IS THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE
30-METER TELESCOPE?>>WELL, THE BIGGEST
MISCONCEPTION I CAN THINK OF IS THAT IT’S NOT NEEDED.
THAT IT WILL BE, ITS POSITION WILL EASILY FILLED BY OTHER
TELESCOPES, OR THAT IN FACT, WE COULD EASILY MOVE IT FROM
CURRENT PLANS TO MAUNA KEA TO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
>>MALIA: CAN YOU EXPLAIN?>>WELL, ALREADY, A LOT OF
MONEY HAS BEEN INVESTED IN SITE DEVELOPMENT, SITE
PREPARATION, MAUNA KEA IS I DON’T CARE WHAT PEOPLE SAY,
IT’S THE BEST PLACE IN THE WORLD TO ACTUALLY SET UP THIS
TELESCOPE DOWN AND THE NORTHERN PLATEAU, WHILE IT
ISN’T AS GREAT AS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CRATER RIM OR UP
AT THE SUMMIT, IT STILL IS FANTASTIC AND THE BEST PLACE
IN THE WORLD FOR IT.>>MALIA: AM I CORRECT IN THAT
THE REASON IT’S NOT GOING TO BE UP IS OUT OF CONSIDERATION
FOR THE VISUAL ASPECTS OF IN?>>ORIGINALLY, THEY HAD
THOUGHT THAT PERHAPS THEY COULD GO UP TO THE RIM LINE AND
JUST TAKE ONE OF THE OTHER TELESCOPES OUT AND REPLACE
IT. AND THERE ARE PLANS WITHIN THE
MAUNA KEA MANAGEMENT PLAN THAT ALLOWS FOR REPLACING
TELESCOPES THERE. SUPPOSED TO COME IN AT THE
SAME FOOTPRINT ON THE GROUND, BUT ALSO, 3 DIMENSIONAL
FOOTPRINT. ONE OF THE ORIGINAL THOUGHTS
WAS MAYBE WE COULD PUT IT UP ON THE RIDGE LINE.
BUT THEN THAT WOULD BE, WE FELT WOULD BE JUST TOO MUCH.
>>MALIA: TOO VISUAL.>>TOO VISUAL AND BY PUTTING
IT DOWN ON THE NORTH PLATEAU, IT IT CAN ONLY BE SEEN REALLY
FROM SORT OF ONE ASPECTS IN WAIMEA.
SO IT WAS IN FACT AT FIRST A COMPROMISE TO REDUCE THE
EFFECTIVENESS OF THE SITE BY GOING TO A LOWER ELEVATION.
>>MALIA: DOCTOR, IS THERE ANY APPRECIATION IN THE
OPPOSITION SIDE IN TERMS OF THE SORTS OF CONCESSION TO TRY
TO FIND A LOCATION THAT IS MORE SUITABLE OR IS THAT
IRRELEVANT TO YOU?>>SUGGEST TO ME THAT
ACTUALLY, PEOPLE WHO ARE PLANNING THE FUTURE OF THE
MOUNTAIN ARE REALLY CONSIDERING WHAT HAPPENS NEXT
AFTER TMT AS WELL. I MEAN, WHERE ELSE CAN YOU
ACTUALLY BUILD ON THIS MOUNTAIN? I WANTED TO SORT
OF CONNECT THAT TO WHAT RICHARD WAS SAYING EARLIER
ABOUT THE EDUCATION AND SCIENCES AND TRAINING PEOPLE
IN HAWAI’I TO TAKE PART IN THE TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT
WITH REGARD TO TELESCOPES. IT REALLY IT STRIKES ME THAT
WHAT WE’RE TRYING TO DO IS CREATE THIS KIND OF INDUSTRY
HERE, WHICH WILL THEN, I MEAN, THIS IS JUST MY RATIONAL SIDE.
SAYING THIS MEANS IT. MT IS NOT THE LAST ONE THAT’S
GOING TO BE BUILT. AND AS THESE OTHERS COME ON
LINE, THEY MAY BE REPLACED BY OTHERS.
>>MAYBE NOT AS BIG AS TMT. MAYBE HAVING A DIFFERENT KIND
OF TECHNOLOGY. THIS IS WHAT IS BEING
ENVISIONED FOR THE SUMMIT OF THAT MOUNTAIN, FOR THE LONG
TERM FUTURE. THIS IS WHY I SAY, THIS IS AN
IMPORTANT DECISION TO BE ABLE TO MAKE AND IT’S ABOUT THE
SANCTITY OF THE MOUNTAIN. IT’S ABOUT THE ECONOMY ON THE
HAWAI’I ISLAND. ABOUT THE FUTURE OF
EDUCATION. WHEN I STARTED UNIVERSITY OF
HAWAI’I, THERE WERE FEWER THAN 5% OF THE PEOPLE AT U.H.
MANOA WERE NATIVE HAWAIIANS. NOW MORE THAN 12% ARE.
WE DID ALL OF THIS WITHOUT REALLY WITHOUT TELESCOPE
MONEY. WE HAVE IMPROVED HAWAIIANS
PRESENCE IN HIGHER EDUCATION AND THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM
FOR HAWAIIANS HAS BEEN IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY.
I THINK IN PART BECAUSE OF THINGS LIKE HAWAIIAN STUDIES.
YOU KNOW, WE JUST NEED TO BE REALLY, REALLY CLEAR ABOUT
THE REASONS WE DO THINGS.>>MALIA: DO YOU THINK THERE
WILL BE MORE TELESCOPES AFTER THIS ONE?
>>NO. I’M PRETTY SURE IT’S THE LAST
ONE. THERE MAY BE, IT’S THE LAST I
SHOULD SAY IT’S THE LAST NEW SITE.
SOME OF THE OLDER ONES MAY ACTUALLY GET RECYCLED.
THE CURRENT PLAN IN THE LONG RANGE PLAN OF THINGS IS TO
ACTUALLY DECREASE THE NUMBER OF TELESCOPES UP THERE.
13 TO SOMETHING LIKE SIX OR SO.
BUT ONE OF THE SIX WILL PROBABLY BE THE 30-METER.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF ECONOMICS,
$1.4 BILLION, YOU CAN GET THAT MAYBE ONCE IN YOUR LIFE.
BUT I DON’T BELIEVE THAT IN THE NEXT, EVEN IN THE NEXT 50
YEARS, THAT ARE WE’LL EVER HAVE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN.
>>MALIA: THIS OPPORTUNITY. ALL RIGHT.
>>MAY I SAY SOMETHING? FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO
SAY THE TMT CAN’T FIT ON THE SUMMIT.
THAT’S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO REALLY GET
AWAY FROM DISCUSSION OF ALL OF THE ECONOMICS AND I WOULD LIKE
TO REMEMBER, A QUOTE FROM PAUL NEVES IS THAT DESECRATION IS
NOT EDUCATION. I MEAN, WHAT WE’RE MISSING
HERE IN THIS DISCUSSION HERE IS THAT IT IS DESECRATION.
AND DESECRATION IS UNLAWFUL IN HAWAI’I.
IT’S AGAINST THE LAW. AND DESECRATION IS AN ACT OF
DEFACING, DESTROYING, ANYPLACE OF GENERATION, A
MONUMENT, BURIAL GROUND. THAT’S WHAT’S HAPPENING ON
MAUNA KEA. I WANT TO BRING IT BACK TO WHAT
THE PROTECTORS ARE TRYING TO PROTECT AGAINST,
DESECRATION. IN HAWAI’I, IT’S $10,000 FINE
ONE YEAR IN PRISON AND/OR BOTH.
BUT NOBODY IS ENFORCING THAT.
YET, IT’S EXACTLY DESECRATION IN THE LAW, HRS 711-1107.
>>MALIA: IS THERE A BIGGER ISSUE HERE? WRONGS OF THE
PAST, SOVEREIGNTY. STILL LEGAL OVERTHROW OF THE
HAWAIIAN MONARCHY AND THE ANNEXATION OF THE CRUX OF THE
ISSUE. U.H. HAS STEWARDSHIP.
>>THAT IS A QUESTION. TITLE IS A QUESTION.
THIS IS CEDED LANDS. BUT THE MAIN THING IS THAT
MAUNA KEA IS SACRED PLACE AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IS
DESECRATION. AND NOBODY SEEMS TO BE
BOTHERED BY THAT. BUT IF SOMEONE WERE RUNNING
OUTSIDE AND BURNING A FLAG, AND IT WOULD OUTRAGE MANY
PEOPLE. OBVIOUSLY, WHAT WE’RE SEEING
TODAY IS THAT OUTRAGE, BUT AT LEAST IN HAWAI’I, WE’RE
CHOOSING TO HANDLE IT WITH ALOHA.
DON’T MAKE MISTAKE. THIS IS OUTRAGE BECAUSE IT IS
AN OUTRAGE US ACT TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT.
WE HAVE ASKED AND ASKED AND ASKED AND SO THIS REACTION
THAT IS HAPPENING IS VISCERAL RESPONSE TO TRUE ALOHA
ACTUALLY.>>MALIA: ALL RIGHT.
I’M GOING TO START GETTING TO SOME OF OUR QUESTIONS.
WE’RE NEARING THE END OF THE SHOW.
FOR MR. HA, IF WE SEND A MESSAGE TO POTENTIAL
COMPANIES THAT HAWAI’I IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC TECHNOLOGY AND
BUSINESS FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT, HOW WOULD YOU
SUGGEST WE ALLOW OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ON THIS ECONOMICALLY
DEPRESSED ISLAND TO SUCCEED AND BECOME FINANCIALLY SECURE
TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO LIVE ON THE BIG ISLAND WITHOUT
MOVING TO THE MAINLAND? WOULD IT BE TO CONTINUE IN
SERVICE JOBS AND TOURISM, BUILDING MULTIMILLION HOMES
FOR PEOPLE LOCALS CANNOT AFFORD.
>>IT’S A PROBLEM. IF WE DON’T DIVERSIFY THE
ECONOMY, WE’RE GOING TO RELY ON THE MILITARY AND TOURISM.
GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO TAX US MORE AND THEY WON’T BE ABLE TO
TAKE CARE OF THE RUBBER SLIPPER FOLKS.
WHAT WE NEED IS TRICKLE UP ECONOMICS.
NOT TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS. IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT A WAY FOR
THE RUBBER SLIPPER FOLKS TO MAKE MONEY, THEN THEY’LL
SPEND. 2/3 OF THE ECONOMY IS MADE UP
OF CONSUMER SPENDING.>>MALIA: WHAT STAGE IS THE IN
THE PROJECT ARE WE AT? YOU HAD ADDRESSED, COULD IT STILL
BE MOVED ELSEWHERE WITHOUT EXCESSIVE COST.
WHERE IS THE PROJECT ACTUALLY AT THIS MOMENT?
>>RIGHT NOW, I GUESS THERE’S ONE STILL ONE LEGAL CASE
THAT’S STILL PENDING. TMT GROUP HAS RECEIVED ALL
PERMITS, ET CETERA, AND THE GOVERNOR HAS ACTUALLY GIVEN
THEM THE GO AHEAD TO START BUILDING.
THEY HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO BUILD AND THEY’RE, I GUESS
THEY’RE WITHHOLDING. TRYING TO SEE IF WE CAN WORK
SOMETHING OUT OR IF WE CAN GET TO SOME COMPROMISE THAT
DOESN’T MEAN PUTTING PEOPLE IN JAIL FOR BLOCKING WORK.
SO THE ONLY THING THAT’S IN FACT, STILL WAITING, BUT
STILL ALLOWED TO PROCEED, IS THE ONE LAST LEGAL CHALLENGE.
>>MALIA: LET ME ASK YOU THIS. ARE YOU SAYING NO COMPROMISE
ON THIS ABSOLUTELY NOT, THE PROJECT NEEDS TO BE STOPPED BY
WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY, THE LEGAL MEANS, AND IF ECONOMIC
PENALTY IN TERMS OF COUNTER SUIT BECAUSE OF PROJECT WAS
STOPPED, DO YOU THINK THAT’S WORTH THE PRICE? OR DO YOU
SEE ANY ROOM FOR COMPROMISE HERE?
>>I THINK IT WOULD BE A TERRIBLE PRICE TO PAY AND I
KNOW EXACTLY WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS.
IT WOULD BE THE GENERATIONS OF BASICALLY POLICY MAKERS WHO
REFUSE TO BASICALLY LISTEN WHEN REPORTING OUT PROBLEMS
WITH THIS PROJECT FROM THE VERY, VERY BEGINNING.
LET’S LOOK AT THIS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.
IF THIS IS ONE OF THOSE TOO BIG TO FAIL KIND WAS SITUATIONS.
CONSIDER HOW MANY AMERICANS WERE REALLY FURIOUS WITH THE
GOVERNMENT’S DECISION TO BAIL OUT BANKS IN 2008 BECAUSE THEY
WERE TOO BIG TO FAIL. BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH THOSE
PEOPLE HAD BEEN, VERY PEOPLE THAT BROUGHT THE UNITED
STATES TO THE BRINK OF ECONOMIC CRISIS.
I REALLY HONESTLY PEOPLE HAVE TO-SHALL THIS IS NOT JUST
ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR DECISION.
IT’S ABOUT HOW WE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT LAND USE IN
HAWAI’I. SAYING THIS ALL ALONG,
KAHEA –>>MALIA: YOU’RE SAYING NO
COMPROMISE. IT CANNOT BE BUILT, PERIOD?
>>CANNOT BE BUILT.>>MALIA: WHATEVER COMES OF IT
COMES OF IT IN TERMS OF THE FALLOUT?
>>THAT’S WHAT I BELIEVE.>>I HAVE TO GO BACK TO YOU.
IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE? THE AGREEMENTS ARE IN PLACE.
I MEAN, I KNOW THERE IS A LEGAL CASE PENDING.
SO THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE THE ONLY PLACE WHERE IT MIGHT
TRULY STOP. OR IS IT TOO LATE FOR LEGAL?
>>I’M NOT A LAWYER, SO I CAN ONLY SAY THAT MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS HAVE BEEN SPENT AND THIS IS CONTRACTS HAVE BEEN
WRITTEN AND SIGNED. SO THIS WOULD BE IN SOME WAY,
VERY, VERY BAD FOR THE STATE OF HAWAI’I.
>>MR. HA?>>YOU KNOW, THE 30-METER
TELESCOPE IS BEING FINANCED BY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND
THEIR POOLING THEIR MONEY TOGETHER.
THIS IS NOT YOUR REGULAR, WHAT YOU THINK OF AS BIG BUSINESS,
LIKE MANUFACTURING. IT’S NOT THAT.
WHAT IT IS, IS IS A BIG NONPROFIT AND THROWING MONEY
IN. DISCRETIONARY MONEY.
SO IF THE ECONOMY GOES SOUTH BECAUSE OF OIL ENERGY, AND IT
WILL AFFECT THE WHOLE WORLD, WE’RE GOING TO BE WISHING THAT
WE HAD SOMETHING MONEY COMING IN BECAUSE THIS IS FREE MONEY.
>>MALIA: ONE THING I’VE HEARD RAISED QUITE A BIT IS THIS
TELESCOPE COULD BECOME OBSOLETE, THAT TELESCOPES
WILL KEEP GETTING BIGGER. IS THAT THE CASE?
>>ECONOMICALLY, I CAN’T THINK HOW IT WOULD BE
POSSIBLE. HISTORICALLY, THINK BACK TO
DIFFERENT REGIME. RADIO TELESCOPES KEPT
BUILDING BIGGER ONES UNTIL THEY REACHED AID CERTAIN
SIZE. THEN THE COST VERSUS
EFFECTIVENESS CURVE OR SOMETHING CAME UP AND THEY
SAID, NO, WE CAN’T GO ANY BIGGER.
BUT WHEN WE FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE A BUNCH OF LITTLE
TELESCOPES THAT CAN MIMIC A BIG ONE.
AND I THINK THE SAME KIND OF TECHNOLOGY IS GOING TO
HAPPEN, OPTICAL AND WE’RE NOT GOING TO BUILD A BIGGER ONE
THAN THE 30-METER OR THE CURRENT ONES THAT ARE GOING
DOWN IN CHILE. I CAN’T IMAGINE, PEOPLE WOULD
HAVE NO MONEY TO SPEND ON THIS.
I ALSO BELIEVE WE HAVE SMART KIDS.
THEY’RE GOING TO FIGURE THIS OUT AND WE’RE GOING TO HAVE
INTERFEROMETERS INSTEAD. RADIOS STOPPED BUILDING.
LAST WAS A LARGE TELESCOPE IN WEST VIRGINIA.
>>MALIA: DO YOU SEE ANY OPPORTUNITY FOR ANY KIND OF
PROGRESS OR MOVEMENT IN TERMS OF FINDING SOME SORT OF ANSWER
TO THIS STANDOFF?>>I THINK IF THEY, IT’S A
LEGAL ISSUE. THE FACT THEY ADMITTED THAT
THE IMPACTS ADVERSE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST CLUE TO
DLNR NOT TO ISSUE THE LEASE. OR THE CDUP.
WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT ALL OF THESE WONDERFUL THINGS EXCEPT
FOR THE PART WHERE IT’S NOT LEGAL.
THE RULES ARE IN PLAIN ENGLISH.
YOU CAN READ THEM. THEY SAY IF THE PROJECT HAS
ADVERSE OR SIGNIFICANT IMPACT, IT MAY NOT GET THE BOX
DOESN’T GET CHECKED. HE CAN’T PASS ON.
SO THAT’S WHAT OUR CASE IS ABOUT.
AND WHY DO WE HAVE THAT CASE IS BECAUSE LIKE JOHN SAID,
THIS IS CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
A LOT OF LAND IN HAWAI’I IS IN CONSERVATION.
THE HALEAKALA CASE IS IN THE SUPREME COURT CASE.
THE SUPREME COURT COURT ACCEPTED IT.
SO IT HAS VERY SIMILAR ISSUES AS OURS.
SO OBVIOUSLY, THE COURTS BELIEVE THAT THESE ISSUES
HAVE MERIT. AND ARE TAKING THEM.
IT’S BECAUSE THESE ARE SERIOUS LAND USE ISSUE.
>>MALIA: ARE THERE ANY CONCERNS FROM THE OPPOSITION
THAT YOU THINK ARE WARRANTED, CHANGES THAT MR. HA.
LET ME ASK YOU THIS. FROM THE OPPOSITION, COMMENTS
YOU’RE HEARING, WHAT MAKING SENSE TO YOU? WHAT CHANGES
WOULD MAKE SENSE DOWN THE LINE ON MAUNA KEA?
>>ANY THOUGHTS? BETTER MANAGEMENT? MORE OUTREACH
NATIVE HAWAIIAN COMMUNITY?>>I THINK THOSE THINGS ARE
ALL IMPORTANT. BETTER MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN,
THAT’S BEEN A COMPLAINT FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME.
BUT I THINK ALSO, JUST EDUCATION, WE JUST HAVE TO
MAKE A BETTER CASE FOR WHAT WE’RE DOING.
WE HAVE TO IN FACT TRY TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS CAN OR
CANNOT WORK. IF I THINK THAT ALL KANAKA
MAOLE HAVE TO DECIDE, EACH ONE, HAS TO DECIDE WHETHER THE
MOUNTAIN IS TOO SACRED TO BUILD ON.
IF IT THEIR ANSWER IS, IT IS, THEN WE HAVE A MUCH HARDER
TIME TRYING TO FIND ANY FURTHER COMMON GROUND.
BUT IF THE ANSWER IS, WELL, OKAY, I CAN IMAGINE IT IF I
THIS THINK IT IN TERMS OF SOMETHING MY ANCESTORS WOULD
DO OR SOMETHING THAT GIVES US MORE EMPOWERMENT AS A PEOPLE,
THEN THOSE ARE THINGS WORTH TALKING ABOUT.
>>MALIA: FINAL MOMENTS. LET ME GO TO THIS COMMENT FROM
JOHN IN WAIMEA. WHY IS BILLING A TELESCOPE ON
A SMALL PLOT ON MAUNA KEA A DESECRATION WHEN JUST A MILE
AWAY MILITARY IS BLASTING A ON A SACRED MOUNTAIN THAT ISN’T
BEING PROTESTED. DO YOU THINK THE ENERGY WE’VE
SEEN AROUND THIS IS GOING TO SPREAD TO OTHER ISSUES TO
OTHER CONTROVERSIAL DEVELOPMENTS?
>>I LIKE TO SAY TO ADDRESS THAT, THAT’S BEING LITIGATED.
TO MAXINE AND UNCLE KU HAVE THAT CASE GOING ON, AGAINST
PTA.>>MALIA: DO YOU THINK THE
ENERGY WILL SPREAD TO OTHER ISSUES, OTHER DEVELOPMENT
IT’S, ARE WE GOING TO START TO SEE, NO, WE’VE HAD ENOUGH
DEVELOPMENT COMING FROM THE NATIVE HAWAIIAN COMMUNITY AND
OTHER SECTORS?>>I THINK THAT’S MAUNA KEA
ISSUE IS A PINNACLE ISSUE THAT HELPS ADDRESS ALL OF OUR
ISSUES. ISLANDWIDE.
IT’S THE FRUSTRATION ISLANDWIDE THAT IS RISING UP
AND ACTUALLY PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WE’RE FREE AND WE’RE
NOT GOING TO GO BACK. WE’RE FREE TO BE ALOHA AND
WE’RE FREE TO LIVE OUR CULL NEWER IN THE WAY WE WANT.
>>MALIA: FINAL MOMENTS. MR. HA, WHAT DO YOU THINK.
>>I’M CONCERNED ABOUT THE, HAWAIIANS USED TO LOOK 7
GENERATIONS OUT. SO WE NEED TO BE LOOKING DOWN
THE ROAD, WHAT IS GOING TO BE HAPPENING ON THE VARIOUS
SCENARIOS. AND THE SCENARIO I KEEP ON
BRINGING UP IS ENERGY. WHAT HAPPENS IN 20 YEARS WHEN
WE CANNOT AFFORD THE OIL AND GAS? NOW, WITH MONEY COMING
IN FROM THE OUTSIDE, THAT’S A FREE ONE.
THERE GOING TO BE IN TROUBLE. WE’LL BE IN TROUBLE.
SO I’M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE PLANNING.
WE HAVEN’T DONE THE PLANNING.>>MALIA: WE’RE IN OUR FINAL
MOMENT.>>WE HAVEN’T DONE THE
PLANNING. WE NEED TO DO A LOT MORE
PLANNING. ONE OF THE THINGS DECISIONS WE
HAVE TO MAKE IS ARE WE WILLING TO SELL THIS MOUNTAIN FOR
$1.4 BILLION BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT
HERE. THIS PROJECT SHOULD BE
STOPPED. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP, STEP BACK
AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE USE LAND IN GENERAL.
>>MALIA: LET ME GIVE YOU THE FINAL WORD.
YOUR THOUGHTS.>>DO YOU THINK THE PROJECT
WILL MOVE FORWARD?>>I HOPE IT WILL.
I HOPE WE CAN COME TO SOME KINDS OF UNDERSTANDING.
OBVIOUSLY, SOME MEMBERS DON’T FEEL THAT WAY.
I FEEL THAT I CAN SAY ONE THING.
IF THAT TELESCOPE IS UP THERE, THERE WON’T BE ANY
RESTAURANTS BUILT UP THERE. THERE WON’T BE ANY
MCDONALD’S. THERE WILL BE NO HOTEL.
INVESTING IN ASTRONOMY MEANS THAT THAT NO MOUNTAIN STAYS
FOR ASTRONOMY.>>MALIA: THANK YOU ALL FOR A
INTERESTING AND CIVIL CONVERSATION.
>>GOOD TALK. FOR DECADES, TOURISM HAS BEEN
A PRIMARY DRIVER OF HAWAI’I’S ECONOMY WITH VISITORS
CONTRIBUTING 1.5 BILLION TO THE STATE’S TAX REVENUE 2013
ALONE. BUT THE RELIANCE ON TOURISM
WHICH SUPPORTS MORE THAN 17% OF OUR JOBS MAKES THE STATE
ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE TO ECONOMIC SHIFTS.
CAN HAWAI’I STILL RELY ON THE VISITOR INDUSTRY? THAT’S
NEXT TIME ON INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII.
I’M MALIA MATTOCH. A HUI HO.

100 thoughts on “INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII – Should the Thirty Meter Telescope Be Built?

  1. The evil western education destroying hawaii? But wait the evil western India, China and Japan are participating on that destructive evil western project too!? Whole world is western and evil now!!?

    At least I´m glad construction can proceed now in 2018 !

  2. I should be disappointed with them to, but you know they are just protected by this regime that overthrew our Kingdom which I learned is the highest treason in the land, so what makes them think they can just go and build things on our island. What OHA should have been doing is protecting your customary rights against these regime, which should be recognized by international law. However, these guys are just another US law, which that!, is not even recognized by international law. By the way, in 1988 the office of the legal counsel and the department of justice said there are no intervening facts that can rebut the existence of the continuity that the Hawaiian Kingdom still exist, and therefore it is unclear which constitutional power Congress exercised when they acquired Hawaii by a joint resolution?

  3. First, I’d like to compliment Ms. Maddock on a very good job as moderator ! Now the panel & discussion – An Important issue. in Hawai’i & our peoples. Good points made & countered – Although, at times it seemed they were ill prepared or distracted.
    My personal opinion is No TMT !

  4. Lots of haoles and coconut Hawaiians/local ( brown outside but white inside) site their Christian beliefs for grounds to dismiss the Hawaiian beliefs. Plz have respect.
    My ohana and kupuna would never condone this project. Most Hawaiians of old like my kupuna were practical people. They would ask, why would you want to niele ( nosy, inquisitive) 55 million light years away? A place you never going to. What we should do is malama this earth. Dr. Coleman you niele. Plz fix this earth, the plastic, the pollution. The ocean is dying, my kupuna would say ho’opono this earth first.

    I’m from a generation that went crazy to put a man on the moon, I’m 71 how did this benefit me? It’s just niele. Think of all the money wasted. I cannot digest even one light year. It’s NIELE.

  5. Contaminate our environment, our water. Our rivers our ocean. What's more important? OUR WATER IS LIFE. AND OTHER THING. DIGGING UP HAWAIIAN GRAVES IS NOT GOOD AT ALL, BOTTOM LINE. THIS BEEN HAPPENING FOR YEARS, SO THEY CAN BUILD ON IT. ( PUT THE TELESCOPE IN SPACE. THEN NO MORE PROBLEMS.

  6. The thing will beam a giant green laser in the sky? Goodbye beautiful stars at night, hello neon kill the planet nightmare sky.

  7. These guests are so beautifully representing their views. I'm impressed and inspired by their warm and even keeled demeanor.

  8. Again we as kanaka, donʻt get a paycheck in our pockets for the trillions of monies that TMT will be generating. We are not poor people, we wear slippas because we want to. We would not be poor if Big business put monies into is kanaka pockets, instead of keeping it for themselves. Itʻs about desecreting the land that we have left. Not one more of what government did to Kahoolawe. We care more for our land than money. We survived without big business here before. Yes we have modern things, and we had it before the US came. We had the first light, before the US. We need government to stop ruining and raping our lands. We as kanaka are satisfied with what we have. We need people to stop TMT. We will not give our aloha to people that come here with no aloha, and want to just take from us. This is our land, not the worlds to come and take. War crime is what is happening, read the history. Government and big business, the rich come and take what they want. We will stand together as kanaka, enough is enough. We lived and continue to live off the land where we can. No TMT. Not another Kahoolawe.

  9. Dismantle the existing telescopes on Mauna K,ea … give them to the top scientist—astronomer to put it in their own back yard … STOP any and all existing telescopes on ‘The Mother’. Mauna Kea. … Stop the cultural DISCRIMINATION and Desecration of “The Mother”

  10. Hou! Last Comment c/o Astrophysicist UH Paul Coleman- I Believe that there will be "Never" Restaurants, or Hotels Constructed up there. Hello, Anybody Home? The Whole time for discussions and Quiet~Debate was about "Desecration/Legal Law/Money Opportunities- 1.4 Billion for Hawai'i Economy-Ok?! Hmm, Excuse- makes this Simple Sailing~BeachBoy Wonder, Different Time, Different Administration, will this Honor and Respect still be the case; Maybe some PowerPlayer comes to the Bargaining Table with 4.3 Billion $$$$ to build a future Public-Domain Education Center/Snack Bar- By the way The Cost To "Splash" (1) Los Angeles Class Nuclear Submarine is almost exactly 1.4 billion dollars, and to Full Armament, Cruise Ready is 4.3 Billion; just One Element of Mass Destruction…

    So Kanaka Maoli Loved~One's Please do Your Homework, and crunch the Numbers, $$$$"The Paper Trail" $$$$ will AllWay Define One's Modus Operandi… God's Speed, and Imua with The People Sharing and Caring Aloha Nui- Imua and Gambatte for Righteousness, along with Super~Natural "Protection for The Protectors" of Mauna Kea/ All Hawai'i Nei Graced within Ono~Pono SOUL. Me Ke Aloha Pumehana DolFunHeart

  11. KIA ORA KO TE TAKAHIKAHI =TANGA O NGA WAAHI TAPU, PENEI NEI, A "MAUNA KEA" E HAMAMA, HE TAKAHI O NGA TURE WAIRUA, NGA KAUPAPA TUKUNA MAI, A WA MATOU KAI HANGA, HE "TAONGA" TENEI "TUKU IHO, TUKU IHO" KO NGA AKARITENGA ENEI MAI I NGA KETE E TORU HANGA MAI I NGA RANGI-TU-HAHA, ME PEHEA ITE HAKATAKOTO NGA TAKUTAKU HEI "HAKATAPUA" HEI "HAKANOA" RANEI, NO REIRA, AKU TUAKANA, KO "WHATI" TE KAUPAPA, NAIANEI NA, KA "TAPU" A TE HUARAHI, TE WAAHI KATOA NGA HUNGA MANENE KATOA E PA TA RATOU RINGA ME ONA WAEWAE RUNGA TENEI WHENUA ME ONA REKEREKE, TUKU MIHI TUKU KARAKIA TUKU TAKUTAKU KAUA E KAI REIRA I TE MEA TETAHI RA HE AKAPUARE TE TATAU OTE KAI HANGA AIANEI NA, TAHI KA, KITE TE NUINGA ONA AKE MANA NE HE WAAHI TAPU TAPU TAPU RAWA HOKI KIA KAHA

  12. Right on MrOsorio in time and w heart. The Hawaiians if they want more education than fine. Keeping the Respect of the culture more important that's educational.

    MrCole is playing the Manipulation card. MONEY… thank U sista for saying money is not problem. It's the desecration of the Mountain.

    And besides they haven't paid the market value from day one. $1.00 not going feed nobody.

  13. Why do they need to spend millions on a new telescope or toy as I call it when they have built over 20 up there already !!! So this money needs to be spent because a few people with worthless degrees can stare into space all day !!! Spend that money on solar panels and wind turbines . Do something good for island and the planet.Make these so called scientist get a real job.

  14. As an old woman, I can tell you that the argument "people will think it's hard to do business in Hawaii" has been used for every problematic project in the state since I was a child. So has "there has already been too much money put into this to back out now." They know this and they make this happen that way. That's how they plan their tactic for invading Hawaii's sovereignty, much less that of Kanaka Maoli. It turns into the only real issue, with all others swept aside and the fear of economic loss wins out. That is not all there is to life or Hawaii. Lots of local people have left the islands reluctantly but now feel reluctant to ever return to live because of the corruption and economic hardship for all but the bosses who are the few who benefit from such projects. That isn't because there isn't enough economic activity, but because of the increasing locking-out of opportunity for the ordinary ambitious person or family or ohana. Thank you to Kealoha and Jon for their lifelong dedication to these issues.

  15. To answer the question in the title: "YES". Science should always trump superstition. Human progress over human ignorance.

  16. Punaluu Heart. 1$ rent for the sacred Mauna with no hope for rectifying this? Cause for outrage on all levels. $1 million dollars yearly 'rent' (10 years from now) for a $1.5 billion dollar telescope? Seriously? Who knows what the future holds…everything is crazy on this planet. But know this, the soul of the Hawaiian people and the rest of the world protecters cannot be bought. Please let me know how I can help.

  17. We need an updated version of this. I love that all of them were respectfully debating and not getting nasty. We need REAL information and facts to be put out there and not the vicious rumor mill that is social media.

  18. Ha joins the rest of the greedy companies that destroys the world. Everything out of his mouth is money. Hawaii never needed money before the uninvited and unwanted showed up. Richard if money and greed is your concern you should examine the Kingdoms 170 tons of gold that awaits the return of our government. I have always said that Richard is an idiot now I can add the other fool Coleman that also supports damaging the world for the sake of money. He wants to look further into space when he cannot see and address what happens here on earth that is right front of his eyes. These are examples of brain washing and indoctrination. Coleman and Ha are Americans not Hawaiian.

  19. Why are all these pro #TMT, scientist, highly educated individuals in the comments below act as if, THIS is a tiny little telescope being proposed for Mauna Kea? When the County of Hawaii doesn't allow a 6-story building to be built, let alone an 18 story telescope on top of the tallest mountain from the seafloor. If you cannot wrap your head around our cultural beliefs and the environmental impact. Get your head around the idea that bigger is not always better.

  20. You're putting faith in bad technology….telescopes on a mountain is NOT modern technology no matter "the latest and greatest". "Science" you are fooling yourself. Wake up.

  21. A testament to HUMAN ADVANCEMENT , ONCE AGAIN , STOPPED BY IGNORANCE AND SUPERSTITION!
    YOUR ANCESTORS ARE SAD! Not a real state project , with swimming pools or profits! JUST THE MOST CLEAR , SCIENTIFIC WAY TO LOOK AT THE THE COSMO FROM THE TOP OF A ROCK! Connecting to HUBBLE !
    Whoever opposes this is obstructing human advancement . And this being said , LET'S MEET THE BIN LADEN'S OF THE POLINESAN WORLD! Go ahead , ….,
    IT'S A TELESCOPE! Just like your ancestors looked at the heavens, when sailing , JUST BETTER! Sorry Carl Sagan , the world is still haunted by non existing demons !

  22. Mr. Ha, … business on a handshake, stupid ass – you haven’t learnt anything from Human History, especially Kanaka Maoli History.

  23. Again, mr. ha, no oil shortages even seen, only oil monopoly wars, and economic strong arming on the false assumption America is a Peace Pursuing great nation. It is not. Don’t use rhetoric as usual. Makes you seem so stupid.

  24. 17:20 – Kealoha, drenched in Western superiority, from the clothes on her back, the T.V. Station she is using to put out her message, to her house and healthcare, and the plane that flies her inner island and THE CAR THAT DRIVES HER UP THE MOUNTAIN. When is the last time she walked from Hilo to the top of Mauna Kea with homemade shoes and clothes like our ancestors did? Never that’s when. You know how cold it is up there at 15,000 feet. Freezing, and very windy. You can hardly spend 20 minutes outside the car with heater running without ski gloves, gortex jacket, beanie on your head, pants and boots. I have no idea how the ancients did it. Some hardcore mofo’s. Not fat and plugged up with Western superior processed food.

  25. Let’s settle this once and for all. Hold a contest, a race from Hilo to the top of Mauna Kea. Tradition vs Western Superiority. Jogging or walking with handmade grass slippaz vs a car. Whoever gets there first wins 💪🏼

  26. Elect Tulsi Gabbard and We will Get Education available to All,
    Instead of playing begging in a Trickle Down theory system.

    We are Not Fooled to understand, that the Elite is trying to build a Rapture in this Sacred Island,
    – Where the Mother God is Paying Attention to those who think they own this Earth.

    No More Exploitation on this Island if We can help it, And We Will asking Mother Pele to interfere
    – Collectively if Necessary.

    As you can already see, Some are in this for the Money and Most of us on this land
    – are protesting to protect Mother Earth.

    Lemuria was already destroyed once by Aliens – but this time she is rising for the New Age of Spiritualism,
    Known as FREEDOM from EVIL or Capitalism – for the next 2000 years

  27. 2 uncle toms. Remove existing decommissioned telescopes and restore their footprints to original condition. Hawaii has been, for far too long, desecrated by foreign entities

  28. Why is economics such a stand out point❓Food production is one thing we all need and can do.When that is sustained and in abundance. Oxygen, water and food are the only requirements of life for human beings.Then maybe negotiations can persist in other directions. For generations our ancient practices have fed our people. Why then does it not make any sense to continue doing something proven. It’s part of the continued denationalized narrative. Control of the people equal control of their land. Take away their food source make them dependent on your resources. Yes you got them where you need them to be. DEPENDENTS. NOT WHERE WE WANT TO BE PERIOD‼️

  29. No TMT no telescope. Just pure love for the Land let the land be free of objects so that the kupuna can walk freely and our keiki can be happy mahalo aloha

  30. Paul, sorry build that telescope on another island and 1,000,000 a year is nothing compared to the desecration of the mauna . . . No way and actions speak louder and the inauthentic words being said by those who have have selfish needs . . . Leases on these lands need to be pulled . . . The people of the world can't even take care of the people here and rather look away into space while people go hungry, no education, no homes, unhealthy foods and so on all for money. Paul im sorry there is no way i or millions of other believe you.

  31. Like I said many many times, gave up HI, that HI is already stolen, and they ruin the sacred place that goes to Heaven by all this Damn White EU, their pretending Queen of England, N and S Americans Tribes, Mexican, Spanish, African Negros and not only the HI islands but also all the way to the Asian country’s such as: Thailand, Japan, PH, etc. Not only the natures they ruin the people as well.

  32. Paul coleman, how will looking into the stars help solve real world problems happening right now

  33. What’s wrong with you people👉I support science, technology, astronomy, even the telescope when appropriately negotiated👈 Mr. Ha and Mr. Coleman you’re in my genealogy. WHAT I don’t support is the lies, deception, the fake unsubstantiated media. Very similar with what going on in mainstream political media. What you don’t know how for read and comprehend either language. What is Kahuna practices❓Nothing more or less than an expert in a chosen field of study. Very reliable knowledge. Look👀at medical experts nothing but lies, deception and unreliable information. Rubber slipper folks who you referring to Mr. Ha that’s you Mr.Ha no ground. We need to be grounded to this Aina. Another real fact bare footed people no need energy. How long has energy been in existence as you referring too❓Many of our real world issues are surrounded by misuse of this energy you referring to Mr. Ha; another lie of modern technology; it’s not racial or ethnic. You only can take one bite at a time Mr. Ha. Have you every tried to to do anything❓There are no results; a very insincere attempt of doing something. We need to be DOING it’s an action with results; that IS what’s taking place on the Mauna; ACTION🤙 Problems are a result of no action. Get into action. Compromise is agreeing on an issue, Not pushing your agenda. You don’t need to be a lawyer to be truthful with facts. You need to be a lawyer when You lying. Mr. COLEMAN what you are witnessing IS these Akamai Keiki exposing these untrue facts. Surrender get on the winning side. It’s not used look Mr. Ha we ARE looking 7 generations in both directions. You do look in both directions when you cross the street don’t you; well if you don’t very good chance you’ll get run over. You no feel like you going get run over must be you only looking one way; which is the wrong way. That rubba slippa is only good for one thing. Getting slapped when you out of line and stay on that crooked line. Snap out of it people. I’o IS our ultimate cultural guardian🙏 Stay square🎯Crooked lines are alway crooked; May look straight in the beginning but at the end it’s far off. How far do you need to look to determine that you are looking in the wrong directi❓The dark side of anything is usually a good indication you looking in the wrong direction. Can you see the light. Means you’re probably looking in the right direction. Research most time requires that you’re observing ; which mean looking and seeing whatever it is you looking at. Second you should be able to feel it somehow. Third you’ll be able to hear it. Fourth tasting it might be accomplishable. Fifth you may detect it by a smell. Is there a sith❓Now go figure🤫

  34. I've Witnessed On OAHU What Investors with their Real-estate Brokers & their Construction developments of High Rise Buildings and congested new homes has done to OAHU'S, Once Healthy Environment and Her Natural Beauty.. There has been more serious and in some cases catastrophic damage that;s been done to our Aina & OUR Submerged lands because of stupid governors decisions and We the people always end up suffering for their greed and stupidity!
    Take YOUR Telescope, Your Spoiled Brats & Your Political Puppet " David IGE " And Juss Go Elsewhere With Your Outer Space Sciences?
    MAUNA KEA is very Unique Mountain because of it's true elevation that starts from the bottom of Our Submerged Aina ..
    Being BLUNT: We people Who Protect Mauna Kea Are Protecting It's Summits from DISRESPECTFUL people like this governor IGE & you TMT ! Mauna Kea rose up from OUR submerged Aina/lands to be what it is today and for ever THE TALLEST MOUNTAIN IN THE WORLD which took MILLIONS of Years to Grow To What SHE Is Today.. Her Summit Is NOT TO BE CARVED UP for some (SAY SO ) science project NOR IS SHE TO BE EXPLOITED BY You TMT or By Anyone "for a matter of fact" WHO Thinks They Can BUY, BRIBE or PERSUADE with favors any Political Appointed Pinocchio Puppet's signature for an ( It's OK judgement for TMT's "Permitted Use Permit " To Build their Giant Soar Eye Telescope Decision) ….
    FACT! Mauna Kea Is NOT Apart Of america nor Will This (Magnificent Spiritual Mountain) EVER Be Apart america & Surly NOT to You TMT for Your SCIENCE Excuses!

    AUWE WHY You FOREIGNERS With Money Always Come To HAWAII And 1st Thing YOU LIKE DO IS, Speculate Buy or Find Ways To Exploit OUR Aina, Culture or Whats Never Belong To You?

  35. I understand both sides.. the perfect atmosphere, height, space, etc.. and on the other side it is sacred it is apart of us..it is where we are connected … It is a hard decision.. Our desire for knowledge and desire to be close to our ancestors and culture.. It boils down to what is truly the best ..truly right… Great panel

  36. I think it is just a way for all of the protesters to blow off steam!! ALL of them that are up there are telling the hole planet that Hawaii DOSE NOT want the the telescope to be built. That is slimly not the case!! some are up there that oppose the idea, those people are just up there to have a good time as it looks to me on news clips. I think it should be build for all man kind. the people that do not want it built are not stupid they are just brain washed into thinking this is a bad idea because of the vary small amount of people with vary loud voice's and bullies in the communities and in the state of Hawaii.

  37. This is like another Ala Moana shopping center; it starts out small with a few food stands an ABC store and evolves into a so-called "economic opportunity" consisting of over the top designer stores that stand nearly empty as a few polite visitors sweat over the price tags. I think it is overall a mess that I dont want. I think these people have used reasonable methods to explain their position. But if UH takes retaliatory actions by not admitting future Hawaiian students it would be a huge negative impact.

  38. A terrascope uses the earth’s atmosphere as a lense…

    It’s 300,000 times stronger than anything we’ve got on the books today…

    Scientifically speaking, TMT is DOA…

  39. Mark Zuckerberg says they should build a huge telescope on the land He and Chan stole from Hawaiians. Zukerberg needs to give back to Hawaii. The Suckerbergs always said they would donate almost all their money to charity. I call BS on that.

  40. Mauna kea was the pivot point of hawaiian navigation. Astronomy is science. Is knowledge and hawaiian navigation seacred??. Why can't both side find common grounds. I am for the telescope but is the pilikea of our today assumming what is and is not?? The ola calls out for higher knowledge and understanding. Our past ancestors was pathfinders. Astronomy is seeing back in time to move forward. E ho mai ka iki mai luna mai e. The pilikea I see is money and power. Science and education is secondary.

  41. We had the same pilikea for the rail transit. Everyone was pump up about the honolulu trainsit rail but look now. NOT THING. All kanaka maole should be concern. Hello.knock, knock!!!

  42. Build the TMT elsewhere, like Mount Rushmore or Mt. Fuji, Mount Sinai, Mt. Olympus, Jabal al-Nour, Mt. Blanc, Mt. Everest, Ayer's Rock — no, not there.

  43. as per deals made to remove the 5 telescopes mandated then put you new coorperate for only money not science thier? opps nah go away space lovers,, clean your mess up then go away,, and take your politicians you bought with you

  44. Ay apo! No ania ania ti mapagdadawelan dagita nga Amerikano aya… Awan la ketdi ti mapanpanunot da… Napatpateg ken kuada ti siensya kaysa tay madadael nga aglawlaw.

  45. Of course, the Japanese businessman talking about TMT if they were to put it up on the mauna, the counties would “benefit” the funds of the telescope😄🤡
    Tell him to go build the TMT on Mount Fuji, he could get a lot more supporters from his kind of like minded people out there 😁🤙🏽

  46. Money is something we create. It is man-made. It is a creation of the mind.

    The green papers and numbers on the screen that have no accountability systems built in, this the end.

    Money, going forward, will only be funds. Funds for clear purposes, with accountability.

    This is simple. Little minds that can’t figure out how to get enough money, they are either ignorant, or are using this tactic to pull at the heart strings of ignorant people, to take advantage.

  47. Paul Coleman, you want to go beyond what you can see with your eyes?

    Meditate into your heart.

    Many have seen what you are seeking, for millennia.

  48. Value Mauna Kea.
    What is it worth 7 generations into the future?
    In pristine state.
    No telescopes.
    Sacred.

    Why stop there?
    Value Hawaii.
    What is it worth 7 generations into the future?
    A unified, sovereign kingdom.
    A sacred nation.
    All beings and the land; honored, valued, fully expressed.

    What’s the current value of Hawaii?
    It is undervalued, in its current state.
    Mint that current valuation, at today’s value.
    Come together as the people of the great Hawaiian Kingdom.
    Form Agreements for cooperation and collaboration.
    Master plan forward how we will get from where we are at, to the Highest Blueprint in the coming years.
    Vote and delegate leaders, committees, levels of leadership in all areas of Hawaii, and all departments of the new / sacred nation.
    Assign salaries in this new currency that is created.
    Issue a list of tasks of all the things that all people of Hawaii are encouraged to do, to invest in bringing Hawaii towards its Highest Blueprint.
    All these monies, that all Hawaiians will be holding, by staking in Hawaii, will go up in value, on an infinite scale, as Hawaii nears its full future valuation.

  49. The wheel in the sky stopped turnin when the fool on the hill saw the world spinnin round all navigation is geocentric astronomy all astronomical experiments since 1880 indicate a geocentric fixed in space Earth aligned with a fixed star Hoku Paa the Polestar-North Star Polaris & the Southern Cross we don't need any telescopes to see that with our bare eyes here in Hawaii Mauna Kea provides the best place on Earth to see the broadest span of the rotating universe this particular mountain is sacred & a Tower of Babyl to be built on the top of Mauna Kea is an open insult to the Supreme Being the Hawaiian elders & the Aina no amount of money can justify desecration of this Holy Place the pinnacle on Mauna Kea is a Temple.

  50. Hawaii has no natural resources in the traditional sense that can create revenue and from the cars they drive to the Smart Phones in their hands protestors have few solutions to indigenous challenges than just saying no. Many believe in a Hawaii that never existed and it's history had all the sins of humanity before westerners set foot there and many only accelerated by the muskets/canons propelled what had been a Neotlithic based people ahead 10K yrs in tech. in just a few decades. Indeed more Hawaiians died at each other's hands than any other factor except for disease in ite relatively short history and the culture shock still resonates to this day as does the illusion that the past was better when in fact it never is…

  51. Place your Science Project on Mount Everest…good luck.

    So, if a telescope is looking into the past, rear view mirror, how can you see before you ?

    How it began? This won't be solved.
    Q : Is there a physical presence to connect with in the universe ?

    A : We don't connect here. Why would that help.

    As a species, we haven't been investing in our planet. knowing as we are first, This is our science project.

    Purpose of corporate benefit alone exist here. Non Profit Money makes money, and more problems.

    Poor excuse, NFL is non-profit.

    That telescope is already obsolete.Science will never catch up with it's purpose.
    Science should be focused on the problems created through Science and bad practices. Clean that space junk floating around the Universe.
    They can't. Clean the ocean, they won't.

    "Knowing"all is too vast and ever fleeting with change. Just as our lives.

    Let's work together for this Great Planet, environment, health, and quality of life without the abusive fallout.

  52. This is the problem with Hawaii. Even Hawaiians can't get on the same page because of severe differences of opinions based solely on racism and nationalism. Lies abound from the side of superstition. You should see them fight about who has more royal blood. This is exactly how the islands were "stolen by imperialists" (false narrative) It's simple in-fighting. This push against TMT is ALL about a very misguided attempt at a "win" for nationalists pushing a racist false narrative. Where were they when plans for new foreign owned hotels went public? Where were they when sacred heiaus were being desecrated? The caller suggests the need for food and services…why arent these people actually doing something to fix those problems? Oh, right…let's just bully the scientists that we know won't send armed guards to kick us out. What a joke.

  53. "And anyways, who's in the office of Mauna Kea managment…?"

    What an ugly, smug bitch. Lies pouring out your eyes, sweetie. I'm surprised more people don't see it. Just look at her micro expressions. She's signaling wildly and trying to cover ticks she knows she has. Shoulders,…attitude. Pathological liar.

  54. Who is that guy with the shifty eyes? It is easy to tell here who is speaking from the heart, with caring for the environment and speaking intelligently. And it is not the guy who keeps talking about the "rubba slippa folks"

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